Lech Walesa: "We have to discuss what the new order will be like"

Walesa rose from his job as a shipyard electrician to become a trade union leader and a central figure in a powerful popular movement that propelled Poland toward democracy in the 1980s. Later, he became the first democratically elected president of Poland by popular vote in decades. DIARIO LAS AMÉRICAS spoke with the Polish leader and found that, decades later, he retains a spontaneity and simplicity rarely seen in figures of such historical stature, far removed from the layers of polish that often surround “politically correct” public figures. Even when faced with direct questions, he tends to respond with ideas and allusions that invite reflection and a search for solutions.

-You fought for rights and freedom in Poland, together with your coworkers here in Gdask. Did you believe at the time that your struggle could eventually lead to the end of communist rule in Poland?

I'm sure you know that I'm a practitioner. That's why I've always been very practical with every process that I engage in. During the 20th century, the world was organized into countries and states. But we grew at a different pace, depending on the time, and a lot of that was based on force. Eventually, Russia conquered nations and, using force, incorporated them into a country. And the United States also fought a war between the North and South and transformed the country into a single state. That's how humanity was evolving. At some point, people started inventing machinery, and that led to capitalism. And their job was to operate the machines, but this was happening at the cost of the nations, the working people. The people realized this and decided: “let's do communism; it’s going to be honest and sincere; they're not going to con us out of our wages”. But eventually, this came to an end as well. And now we must manage things continentally and even globally. The way of management must change. And I'm sure there will be new behaviors and new processes.

-When you look at Poland today, which changes make you the proudest?

Throughout our lifetime, epochs have changed. When we established Solidarity, it was a specific situation, and we kept watching it, following it. And I think that the world had come to the end of its capacity in terms of how it was organized. And even communism had run its course because it stopped the world from growing, from developing. So that's number one. Number two, World War II changed the world. There were divisions and powers to be, but that also came to an end. There was probably only so much it could do, and then it stopped the world from developing. Then we had a bipolar world. It was the United States at one extreme and the Soviet Union at the other, which was really dangerous for the world. And communism was gearing up to start a nuclear war. No one really talks about this, but the only reason why we came out of this unscathed is because [Soviet leader Leonid Ilyich] Brezhnev fell seriously ill. He wanted to save his life; so he forgot all about armament and the arms race. As you know, Brezhnev did not survive, and [Mikhail] Gorbachev, which destabilized the entire communist system. Seeing this, we decided this was the right slot for Solidarity, and it was perfect timing. If we had missed that slot or if we had got it wrong, they would have treated us like Russia is treating Ukraine today. But the whole reason for Solidarity and the fight was to reorganize the world, to make it a better and wiser place. And we thought as soon as we overturned communism, things were just going to fall into place; it was going to be fine. But as you can see, that's not been the case. Why? Because as a result, people lost trust and belief in one another. We have to talk to one another to be able to build a new reality. What's happening in the world is about persuasion, looking for a solution for the new reality after the fall of communism. Whatever we had in place back then is no longer fit for the times today. We have to redefine again what the left means, what the right means. And even democracy as we know it today, it's just not right for the times today. Because the underlying idea behind democracy was that there were going to be clever, wise, and honest people making sure that everything runs smoothly for our country. Is this the case now? And that's not the case. And this is why people are turning away, so much so that they elect populists, demagogues, and even bad presidents. That's the world today. But I think with time we will find the right, wise people who will put it all back together and build new structures for the current times. And I would say that Poland is particularly experienced. Poland is no stranger to the developments in the world; we are also affected. We make the wrong choices, we elect the wrong people, and we go back to old ideas simply because we don't have any new ones yet. Populists and demagogues have the advantage today.

-Today, we are once again facing aggression from Russia. Based on your experience, how should the free world respond?

Up until the end of the 20th century, stronger countries would absorb weaker countries; that’s how it worked. But at the end of the 20th century, a new concept arose for how the world should develop. While we have to keep growing, it will not be at the same pace, or in the same way as we've been doing so far. We do it the democratic way; we volunteer, we operate via the European Union, NATO, and the United Nations. There are two concepts of development, the old one and the new one. Russia and China are still stuck in the old concept. Russia wants to annex Ukraine, and China also wants its territories. And the question is: which concept will be the winning one? Russia is stuck in the old concept. Solidarity showed how to fight and how to win. But the world has forgotten about this and is still using the old methods, fighting Russia using the old methods of combat. And Ukraine is going to beat Russia using the old methods. But Russia will bounce back after the defeat, perhaps 20 years from now, and our children will have to be fighting Russia again. Because that's not where the problem lies. That's why I said we must correct democracy. The Russian Ukrainian war offers a good point about democracy. If Putin only had two terms of office, he wouldn't be able to put together his gang, and he wouldn't be able to do what he's doing. Here's an appeal to all the political parties: your elected leaders can only have two terms. And here is another point that we should add to the democratic rules. It should always be possible to remove elected officials from office. To keep it fair, you have to collect more signatures than the number of people who voted for the politician. And my third point for democracy is ensuring that finances are transparent. This is why I'm making this claim that democracy as it is right now no good for the times today; it’s making Putin stronger and stronger. So we have to change what we fight for because defeating someone physically doesn't solve anything.

-Cuba has remained under communist rule for decades. What message would you give to the Cuban people who hope to see democracy and freedom in their country?

Here's where you can see how the world is developing at different paces. Poland was in trouble; Europe was in trouble. And think about the number of wars and revolutions we've been through. But after Solidarity had won, Europe took the right direction in developing the world. We abolished the borders. We've united Germany in a peaceful way. If you have a good job, you can work in any of the countries. Where did we go wrong? We just assumed that all the other continents would follow suit and that they would take the European way. And if they had done so, Cuba wouldn't have had the problem. And this is where I put the blame on the U.S. because the U.S. was able to see the developments in Europe. And back then they were the unquestioned good leaders of the world. But the U.S. never encouraged the other continents to do what Europe was doing. But they didn't do it and that meant that they lost the leadership both in terms of morality and political stance. It was such a huge mistake on the part of the U.S. They keep continuing doing that mistake.

-What would you like a visitor to understand about Poland before leaving the country?

Let’s keep having this conversation, start the conversation wherever you go. Because we're so divided. People have such opposing views. But having this discussion will help us to understand and identify people. And eventually there will be people who will collect all the good ideas and convert them into new structures and programs. We have to continue this conversation to continue to lead the world. The kind of civilization we have now, the level we're at, we've had that several times before in this world. But those civilizations collapsed. I think we are slowly approaching the level they were at and the breakdown. But we have their experience, so we should use it to save ourselves. The split into the left wing and to the right wing, it's not working anymore. Our generation was given two jobs, to abolish the old order and to discuss what the new order will be like.

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